home Technique and tools › › How to open the flap at the entrance? Correct replacement of circuit breakers in the dashboard Dashboard on the landing diagram.

How to open the flap at the entrance? Correct replacement of circuit breakers in the dashboard Dashboard on the landing diagram.

Good day, dear guests and readers of the "Electrician Notes" site.

Just yesterday, one of the relatives asked me at his entrance. We did not postpone the replacement indefinitely, because The meter was already bought from him, and I always carry mine with me in the car.

The old single-phase induction meter SO-I466, which he wanted to replace with a newer SOE-55, was on his landing in the floor board.

In this article, I will dwell in more detail not on replacing the meter, but on the floor panel itself and its diagram.

So let's go.

I will say right away that the purpose of replacing an electric meter is that, you must agree, it has a number of advantages over metering electricity at one general tariff.

If you are still thinking about which counter to buy, then I recommend reading the articles on how to correctly and.

As I said above, my relative's old meter was on the staircase (cage) in the floor board.

The floor board is designed to receive and distribute electrical energy to the apartments of citizens-consumers. Also, its main purpose is to protect outgoing lines to apartments from overloads.

And now let's take a closer look at what the floor panel consists of and the scheme of its connections.

What does a floor panel for 3 apartments consist of?

I forgot to mention that there are 3 apartments on the landing, which means that the floor board is intended for 3 apartments and no more. This is how it looks:

To be more precise, this floor board has the designation ШЭ-3302. Let's decipher:

  • SHE - floor shield
  • 3 - has a compartment for low-current and low-voltage networks
  • 3 - for 3 apartments
  • 02 - execution of the shield circuit (I will talk about it just below)

The floor board of this marking consists of 3 sections:

  • introductory
  • distribution
  • for low-current and low-voltage networks

Each compartment is closed with its own door. Viewing windows are provided for removal.

Now let's talk about each department separately.

Introductory office in the floor board

The entrance section of the floor board consists of main wires that go through special channels (interfloor voids). The wiring of the main lines is made of four-wire, with a wire of the APV brand (aluminum), with a cross section of 16 sq. Mm s.

All three phases of the main wires (A, B and C), as well as zero (PEN), are connected to the terminal blocks without breaking the wire itself. This can be clearly seen in the photograph.

From these terminal blocks, aluminum wires of the APV brand, with a cross section of 4 sq.mm, go to the distribution compartment.

Distribution room of the floor board

The distribution compartment of the floor board consists of a removable frame on which special strips are located for. In our case, there are electricity meters for three apartments.

Also on this frame are installed DIN rails for group lines of apartments and packet switches, which are covered by a protective panel.

Compartment for low-voltage and low-current networks

There is one more compartment left in the floor board, which we have not considered. This is a compartment for low-voltage and low-current networks. It runs telephone and intercom cables, security alarm lines, internet and satellite dishes. I did not take a photo of this department, because there was no need to look there.

Floor board scheme

The floor board layout is shown below.

As I said above, the trunk wires are connected to the terminal blocks without breaking. There are 4 terminal blocks in total: phase A, B and C, as well as zero block PEN.

From the terminal blocks, wires of the APV brand with a cross section of 4 sq. Mm go to the packet switches in the following order.

  • phase A and zero goes to the package of apartment No. 2
  • phase B and zero go to the bag of apartment no. 3
  • phase C and zero go to the package bag of apartment No. 1

Further, from each bag, the wires go to the electric energy meter of the corresponding apartment. The wires go from the electric meter to 3 group machines. Two machines have a rated current of 16 (A), and one has a rated current of 25 (A). From these group machines, the wires go to different distribution boxes of the apartment.

Hello Dmitry. But there must be some lower limit, below which the supplying organization must not go over. This refers to a three-phase power supply. According to the documents, the total allocated power for the house is 5 kW. The lead to the house is new SIP 4a-16mm. The overhead line is also in good condition. For heating, a ttk is provided and three heating elements are installed in parallel with it. I don’t know the power, now it’s questionable until spring. But if we take at a minimum of 1 kW, then 2 kW remains for life. For winter, it turns out a little. Is there anything you can do to increase the power?
In one of your articles, you wrote that power limiters are not legal. And if there is a "smart" meter and it is programmed to turn off the power when the power is exceeded. As then?

Hello Dmitry.

With the TN-C system, grounding in the apartment (without upgrading to the TN-C-S system) cannot be done. It is also impossible to connect the PE contact to the N contact in the home outlet (i.e., zeroing), because if the PEN conductor burns out anywhere to this outlet (at the entrance to the apartment or on the floor below), the enclosures of electrical appliances will be energized. In this regard, two questions:
1. Why, then, is it allowed to nullify the boards on the landing (as in your case)? Indeed, when the PEN conductor burns out somewhere before this shield (on the floors below), the same thing will happen as when it is zeroed - that is, it will be under the "residual" potential, "coming" from the zeros of all apartments located above the place of burnout , respectively, presenting the danger of electric shock to any person passing and touching this shield?
2. If, nevertheless, the neutralization of the common board is allowed, is it possible, as some electricians do ("having no other opportunity with the TN-C system"), to put the PE conductor of the apartment sockets on the body of the common board? Wouldn't it be the same as if grounding was done in a household socket, and therefore unacceptable?

Thank you so much))) Very good site)))

THANK YOU VERY MUCH for the site! The information is presented very clearly and will be useful for both beginners and professional electricians!

Interestingly, if in this dashboard we replace 1 automatic 25A + 2 automatic 16A with one 40A, this will not be a violation? House management will not fine?

I did this after replacing these switches and transferring the meter to the apartment. After the packet switch, I connected an automatic machine for 40 (A), from which the lead-in cable went to the apartment switchboard, where the meter and group machines were installed. But in order to do this, you need to agree on the nominal value of the input machine with the power supply company. Come to them during office hours, tell them your situation. If you have little knowledge of electrics, then call an electrician with you.

Please tell me how the correct name and marking of the transit 3-phase block to which the phases in the dashboard are connected. In the last photo on the right. I have a slightly different design in the shields (above the counters with a loop through a bolt). It is very necessary for revising the shields, but on the Internet I can not find it for purchase.

Dear Admin, please tell me according to the current standards, is it necessary to hang tags indicating the purpose and cross-section of conductors, both phase and zero in floor boards?

Valery, according to PTEEP, clause 2.4.5. Openly laid cables must be provided with tags, on the cable tags at the beginning and end of the line, the brand, voltage, section, number or name of the line must be indicated.

Good day!
If possible, I would like to know the answer to the question from Sergey on 01/30/2014 at 21: 49 ...
Thanks!

Another question) The dashboard scheme is similar (only we have 2 group machines per apartment). Wiring aluminum, PE no. We are doing a partial renovation of the apartment and would like to make a partial modification of the electrics (without altering what there is and altering the floor panel), but organizing several additional groups of consumers: 1 (bathroom - washing machine + hairdryer), 2 (kitchen - built-in electric stove + electric ignition of the gas panel) 3 Kitchen (refrigerator - socket group of the kitchen apron (microwave oven, blender ... kettle) and 4 - stationary computer (+ peripherals) and TV with DVD. Wiring 3x2.5 copper, without PE connection to the panel.
It is supposed to organize a small apartment panel for ouzo and automatic machines only for these consumers.
Question: how to correctly and competently make a branch from the floor panel to the apartment? From one of the machines and a ground bus? or how? In this case, you need to enter the input with an aluminum wire, and then switch to copper in a small shield through the machine?

Thank you!!!

To your question - read it. I talked there about the modernization of the floor board.

Yesterday I changed the meter due to overestimated readings, someone had already turned off the shield very recklessly on their machines leaving the meter, they found a wire when it was turned off, nothing turned off in my apartment (in the evening a neighbor came, it turned out it was her kitchen outlet), a wire from shutdown of which in her apartment nothing turned off (and the third neighbor did not turn off either). Only one phase of 16 sq. Now the question remains - who has a zero on which counter ?! By the way, my kitchen outlet with grounding also did not pass through my zero from the meter, but went directly to the common zero bus along with grounding (meaning zero from the outlet and grounding) to the zero leaving from my meter, two wires going into the apartment are suitable for the load - one exactly mine, the other must be phoned where he is going. The question is

I am going to install LED lamps in the entrance and above the visor instead of the cobra in the whole house 6 entrances and 9 floors. Desire to turn on both of them on a timer. Tell me where the power supply of the MOS comes from, if from the switchboard, then you can combine all the entrances into 2 groups? and manage them from one place?

good day! Tell me how many outgoing vending machines can be put on floor panels for 3 apartments for 1 apartment? in a typical project of a residential building with gas heating on outgoing lines for 1 apartment there are 3 automatic machines for 16A, we have a project with electric stoves and we need to put an automatic machine for 25A 220V, a 6 kW stove. Do you need to replace one machine for 16A with 25A or can you add one machine for 25A additionally?

Good day!
There was a question of replacing the counter. Everything is as in the photographs, but there are no bags, although they are on the floor below. How to turn off the voltage in this case? In fact, if you hold the wire with pliers and unscrew the wires with a screwdriver, it won't kill you ?! And then also connect the counter back ?! How to install a din rail with your machines so as not to remove your neighbor's machines, they are structurally installed on the same rail? If aluminum is suitable for the meter, then copper can be brought from it to the machines, and then the old aluminum wiring goes further from each machine?
If you put a bag (or an automatic machine, then by how many Amperes) in front of the meter, then it is allowed to conduct copper with subsequent aluminum of the old wiring from it to the meter and from the meter to the machines?

I also want to install a separate machine on the washing machine. I just don't know how to carry VVGng 3x2.5 into the kitchen. Electricians propose to make the input along the site to the bathroom, lower it along the water / sewer risers further through the bathroom to the kitchen, is PES allowed? Are there any schemes for the wiring channels in the brezhnevka?

World 150914 for a stove is better than 32 A, for a socket part 16A, for lighting 10A, again, depending on how many rooms it will be necessary to share the load

Alexey 111014, practically possible, only the pliers should be with insulated handles, and a dielectric screwdriver, and if you have no experience it is better not to risk it and call an electrician
Din rail can be put on, you can loosen the screws on the bar and pull out the old machines,
You can lead copper from the meter, but if you are going to change the meter or turn it off, it would be wiser to throw copper up to it,
In front of the counter, if you ride, put 50A or 40A
It is better to lead along the corridor in the cable channel, without any toilets and bathrooms
Not PES but PUE

Good evening, tell me please, I am interested in the question about circuit breakers. The wiring in the apartment was changed, but so far I did not manage to change the input machine in the corridor for an apartment (the old one was 25A). When the stove was working at home (there was a separate machine for it in apartment 40A), a short circuit occurred, the machine turned off in the introductory corridor (as I understood it is weaker than on the stove - therefore, the bouncer), changed the introductory machine to 50A, I think now when the stove is working it will be directly kick out in an apartment for 40A. I turn on the stove, after a few minutes there is no light anywhere. I climbed into the shield, the automatic plate 40A was knocked out, I went out into the corridor - the input machine for my apartment was knocked out - 50A and the input to the 63A floor was knocked out. Why did 3 get kicked out at once? Should it be only directly on the stove?

And what kind of wiring you have, maybe because of a thermal overload and chops, and the wire on the stove heats the neighboring ones

What do you mean? All new VVGng wires, laid on the 3 * 4 plate

Look for kz, but you need to put the machine gun on the stove 32A

The same shield. The stove is gas, therefore, a separate, non-working zero, "zero" from the shield body does not come to the apartment.

Question. Washing machine in the bathroom. We take and equalize the potentials of all available pieces of iron - we connect the bath, all available risers with a thick copper jumper. You can even organize a copper bus and connect each riser with a separate wire to it. Metal pipes - they are in any way in the ground and they have an absolute zero potential.
We hang the body of the machine here. That is, we connect the PE sockets for the machine to our earthing switch. In a very bad case (if the leak and the machine gun did not knock out no one will kill anyone, because all the potentials are equalized by jumpers, there is no difference, but it is not the potential that kills, and it is the difference - the birds are sitting on high-voltage wires, and nothing to Neighbors either.
That is, as far as I understand, we get something in the form of a TT system with a ground electrode from water-heating pipes.
But a potential equalization system can be made, but a ground electrode in the form of water pipes cannot be used. The question is why? I would like to hear - not because it is forbidden, but on specific examples of what this can lead to.

Serg, because now they often make tie-ins into risers from non-conductive elements. And in the event of a breakdown of insulation at the drain, a potential may form, the difference of which with the ground can kill (and not even necessarily you - but, for example, a neighbor from below)

And I will add ... Here you are, Serg, well done, that asked. And the same neighbor from below will not do this (consult and ask) (we are all smart). And the result will be, as in Alexey's answer, only exactly the opposite. That is, now you will be in the role of a neighbor.
Well, as a sub-option for inserting plastic: repairs are made on your riser with partial disassembly thereof. That's it - there is no ground electrode - get the same difference. Needless to say, it is considered "bad taste" to warn neighbors about ongoing work.

GVS and HVS pipes must be grounded when entering the building!

AND…? Who can argue with that? Building entry is one thing. Yes, even if they are at least three times grounded: the owner of the apartment on the 3rd floor in a 9-storey building will replace his part of the riser with plastic (this is not prohibited) - "and, hello, Shishkin": the upper floors above this owner have no grounding of this riser.

Hello. I'm a little off topic, my mother just puzzled, decided to find the answer on the Internet and came across this site, saw that the person is a professional, so I hope you tell me. So my mother said that in the afternoon she received a call from a neighbor on the landing, who was with a neighbor's tenants from another floor. The neighbor asked for the key from the dashboard, they say the tenants from another floor want to connect to the Internet for themselves ... BUT! what does our shield have to do with it? Why does a person from the 3rd floor want to connect the Internet through the 1st floor's shield. Is some kind of fraud possible? Please comment on the situation

Anastasia, maybe they want to run an Internet cable through your shield to their floor. Look in the article, for this there is a special compartment in the switchboard (for low-voltage networks and low-current cables). In general, you can ask them directly. There is no fraud here.

[i] I didn’t remove the “Packet”, but when replacing the group machines with modern ones and reconstructing this shield, I will definitely remove it.

Why is this necessary?

if only because over time they begin to wedge and it is not possible to switch them without dismantling, and they do not have short-circuit protection functions, according to its principle it is a switch or a load switch

And what do the entrance machines protect? Counter?

Counter, and cable to group vending machines

Answer: Pavel
19.12.2014 at 21:38
Pavel, a circuit breaker does not have to be installed in front of the meter. A switching device must be installed in front of the meter, which can be a load switch, circuit breaker or circuit breaker (Switch-disconnectors) whose task is only to remove voltage from all phases connected to the meter.
I am quoting paragraph of the PUE: 7.1.64. For safe replacement of a meter directly connected to the network, a switching device must be provided in front of each meter to remove voltage from all phases connected to the meter.

What is the shape of the key to open such a shield? THERE, where group machines, with a screwdriver faked and that's it, and indeed the door is always open. But the big door is a problem to open!

Alexei:
01/13/2015 at 20:09

Contact the ZhEK.

I have 2 Soviet black submachine guns and a counter according to the same scheme, only there are no accessories. I will install Neva 101 (as I understand it will stand on the same holes). If you change the Soviet machines for 3 to 16 (the third is still in reserve). Should you put a vending machine between the counter? And which? All wiring is aluminum. What section is used (gas in the house)? Can you make an aluminum comb? To put machines on 4.5 kA? Indian schneiders EASY9 are very different from Bulgarian schneiders (at a price 2 times)?

I've been thinking for a month now, I got to the wire cross-section. I stopped at a copper 1x4 sq mm brand PUV.

Alexei:
01/20/2015 at 02:22

Between the meter and the input wire, it is better to put a 2-pole automatic machine for 20A., To install it, you need to buy and fix a din rail on the shield (the din rail is selected according to the width of the machine or taken longer, then sawn off to the desired size). The inspector will put a seal on the opening machine. The wire in old apartments with aluminum wire goes by 2.5 sq. Mm. there is no less. The comb, or rather the jumpers between the machines, can be made of an aluminum wire with a cross section of 4-6 sq. mm., but it is better to take copper as you want and start it from the meter to the input machine, make jumpers on the machines with the same wire, but I would buy a comb for 3 machines (in some stores it is cut to the required length). Automatic machines for an apartment must be taken with characteristics B or C.

Good afternoon, In the floor panel, the protective shields have been removed, the wires have twists both before the metering device and after. This is after the intrusion of an electrician from the housing office. I wish to force the housing office to restore according to the PUE, Tell me which sections of these rules can I rely on in my appeal? Thank you in advance

Tell me at what distance the floor (common) panel should be located from the apartment? Is this provided for by the PUE or does not matter.

And the wires from the top to the shield are connected, if the difference is which wire to insert where? We have 3 wires!

Tatyana, do you mean the wires from the group machines going to the apartment? If yes, then you need to observe the polarity when connecting them - connect the phase to the machine, and zero to the zero block. I do not quite understand about "3 wires" - where do they go?

Hello, I would like to know how you can turn off (turn on) the wired Internet through the floor board?

Incorrect question. And what, the Internet is always through a floor board, and is certainly connected to the network? The Internet can also be supplied with optics, then you can turn it off in the classic way - from turning the plugs to cutting the wires. For the whole apartment ...

after a fire in one of the apartments on the 4th floor in the shield of the 5th floor, all the wires are covered with molten var (I don’t know what this material is called), in one of the apartments since November of this year the light (intermittent) began to blink, that is, no, but now almost every day, electricians from the housing department they will come to look, tighten the screws and that's it, time will pass, everything repeats itself, they say call the laboratory what to do?

I am writing about an apartment on the 5th floor. Today an electrician came again, pressed the contacts, noticed that the entrance lamp was also blinking, my suggestion to clean the contacts, because the high temperature had some effect on their surface, said that he had been working as an electrician for 4 years, closed the box and left

Is it possible to independently replace the wires going from the bag to the counter and from the counter to the machines?

You can, if you can then independently seal the terminal compartment in the meter. There is a possibility?

Answer: Peter: 02/13/2016 at 06:55
Only qualified personnel are allowed to perform this type of work.

I will clarify whether it is possible to independently replace the wires going from the bag to the meter and from the meter to the machines during the planned replacement of the meter? I replaced the meter myself (according to all the rules of Mosenergosbyt), I did not like that the wires are aluminum. I would replace them too, while I am waiting for the sealant .. But there are doubts that I have the right to change them. On the counter, I wrote a statement for unsealing, etc., but what about the wires?

the bag breaks both conductors - and electrical work is performed de-energized. Should I have a permit? Is my confidence in my qualifications sufficient? If I change the wires, will I have to report to someone, like a meter to Mosenergo? I am more interested in organizational issues.

Answer: Peter: 02/15/2016 at 12:32
Peter electrical installation is energized. And by turning off the VP at your metering device, you did not de-energize the electrical installation. To do this, you need to make switching in the ASU. To de-energize your storey SCHUR. Therefore, you continue to work under voltage at your own peril and risk.
Yes, Peter, you must have an admission group and qualification of an electrician. You can, on your conscience, poke around in your apartment, this is your property and you can dispose of electrical installations in it as you want. But the Floor Board Considered Distribution Board is not your property. And if you make some mistakes during the period of any work without having, for example, the necessary skill or knowledge when connecting electrical appliances, this may end badly. Both for you and for your neighbors. Don't forget this.

Hello.
In the floor panel there is no disconnection of the load to the counter (neither an automatic machine, nor a bag).
Is it possible in this case to restart the counter?
There is a suspicion that the BARS-1.113 "brain freeze" counter.
Until you give a good load, he does not want to count the energy.
Everything is bad with the electricians in the housing office.

Yuri, this is unlikely to solve the problem. But nevertheless, if there are no switching devices in front of the meter (and, otherwise, this is a violation), then you can de-energize the main riser for a short time, although its disconnection must be ordered in advance from the company that serves you as an electrician.

Good time of the day, tell me please, if the outlet wires to the bag (we also plan to replace it with 50a) are replaced with 6mm copper (a large power load from the apartment) and from the bag through the same 6mm lead into the apartment and assemble the shield with automatic devices there, you can how to do so? The counter is left with the old SO-I466.

Good time of the day!
I got a job in an energy sales company for the installation of metering devices and would like to ask.
We are not given the keys to the interfloor shields, such keys should only be in the housing office, the key masters refuse to do it from the existing one, is it possible to buy a similar blank and modify it with a file, or you can still find a good key keeper, the key is, in principle, simple and a sample hands have

Vladimir, there is nothing for you to do in these shields without the consent of the owner

I know that the counters in the floor panel are located with an inverted letter P. But how should the machines be located according to the rules if they are not in a line? There are 4 apartments on the floor. There is a suspicion that a cunning neighbor's family connected my RCDs for 25A to themselves, and I got it on 16A. It was not even resorting to reinstalling them, they simply reconnected the wires. ((When the machine was triggered, out of habit, I looked at other machines. But a lot of time has passed since I was interested in my machines, I could have made a mistake.

Where does such knowledge of the data about P come from upside down? And what, in fact, is the difference - P is straight, or P is upside down, if they are there or so, or that way, but four?
No matter how they are placed, it is not difficult to trace with skill and understanding. But not with your fingers!

Elena, hello. To be honest, I do not quite understand you, namely, about the counters installed by the "inverted letter P". It is better to send me a photo by mail, or better to the Forum (link to it in the top menu of the site), there we will discuss all the points. Thank you.

We are talking about the location "inverted by the letter P" of apartment meters, i.e. the count was carried out from the upper left counter to the upper right through the bottom (upper left 1kw, lower left 2kv, lower right 3kv, upper right 4kw). This arrangement was adopted in the USSR just so that the tenants would not get confused and did not check by the shutdown-shutdown method to whom which counters belong, and even more so, did not climb on the dashboard. ???
In the distribution window, too, in a certain order (only what, if they are not in line?) Were the levers of the machines (for example, for a temporary disconnection from the network to change the chandelier), the wiring of the tenants should not have been of interest.
After replacing the machines, I was happy for a long time to come to the distribution window. The other day, at night, from turning on a 180 kW chandelier for half an apartment, the electricity was cut off. From old memory, I looked into the distribution window - all four levers showed an operating state. And the neighbors (according to my old memory of the location of their machines), just one of the 4 levers worked. It turned out that by location, these are now my machines. But memory can give me a lift!
I thought maybe you know the location of the machines according to the rules developed back in the USSR, if they are not in the same line ... Oops ...

where to find the switching diagrams of the cam batch switches. you need to connect the welding machine mss 1902

A novel, what specific type, brand, model ..., or "in general"? Then there are many options.

Elena, where did you see these "rules" and when? The USSR has not been for 25 years, during this time a lot could have changed in your RC. And to know where your machines are not according to the old and incomprehensible "rules", but specifically, even by signing them with a marker after checking. Then the memory will not give you a lift. Well, figure it out with power - 180 kW is a bit too much.

Hello, I changed the meter in the apartment on Saturday, installed the ESO 711, in two days he wound up 12 kW, despite the fact that I usually do not spend more than 80 kW per month. on Thursday a representative of the PRUE will come to seal the meter.
The question is - is it a defective meter or not connected correctly ????

I will add a light flashing green, there were readings on the meter, but I don't remember if 1 kW or 10))

This means that you have consumed either 2 or 11 kW. Sort it out somehow, guessing and helping in such a situation is very difficult.

can it be connected incorrectly ?? although 4 contacts are there to be confused (

Dmitry, good afternoon.

1. More like Betar ESO-111, not ESO-711.
2. There really is nothing to be confused in a single-phase meter, either it will count, or there will be a short circuit. You have it counted a certain amount of electricity, which means it is most likely connected correctly.
3. As an option, and most likely it is - the old meter greatly underestimated the power consumption. Why did you replace it - as prescribed?
4. Alternatively, self-propelled. But that in two days 12 (kW) is too much. If the inspector comes to seal it - ask him and he will check the meter error and will definitely give an answer.
5. Correctly write off the readings ?!

counter SO-E711, with a digital display, I live in Kazakhstan a company manufacturer SAIMAT, on self-propelled things it is unlikely that the light bulb (3200imp / kW hour) blinks quite rarely and most likely 10-11 kW on the meter was already this and it annoys

In the passport of the meter, the value in kW * h was always written after the state verification and acceptance, did you look?

Well, in general, I pulled out this meter and changed it in the store which I took to a new one and put it on Tuesday at 15:00, today Thursday at 12:00 it already had 11 kW, i.e. about 5.5-6 kW / day. In short, the result from replacing the meter is zero.
There is a refrigerator in the apartment (one-room), nothing has been erased these days, half of the housekeeper's bulbs, the computer also works almost all the time, a couple of times a microwave oven, a couple of times an electric kettle, one person lives.
The counter was sealed today.
Somehow it turns out a little too much (
The electronic self-propelled counter shouldn't seem to be, I didn't find any extraneous connections in the shield to my machines and wiring, there are no outlets in the walls adjacent to the neighboring apartments either
CAN MY WIRING GIVE AN EXTRA LOAD ???

Dmitry, it means that your old meter greatly underestimated the readings. Everything turns out right. The refrigerator and the PC are, as you say, a constant load. Let's take in a rounded way that together they consume 200 (W) or 0.2 (kW), maybe a little more, maybe a little less. You need to look at their specific characteristics or measure the current with clamps. So for 1 hour the counter will count 0.2 (kWh). For a day, it will already be 4.8 (kWh). Plus lighting, microwave, etc. So you get 5-6 (kWh) per day.

Yes, I thought so too, I figured the load, the computer there is powerful of course 24 hours a day does not work, but I think the power supply unit there is 600-700 watts, because a person works with computer graphics, since I myself do not live in an apartment, but I rent it to lease can not accurately determine the load on consumers, and the tenant can also confuse something. In general, thank you all for participating.

1 - it was not written - the sensitivity zone of the SE moved to the left by about an order of magnitude or more. If the wheel did not see the TV in standby mode, the rest is the same, then your electronic one, see your passport, will see the current, which is scanty in terms of the consumer's concepts. And there are a lot of such devices, which seem to be turned off, but still consume, in the house and everyone is eating, eating, eating like a moth ...
2- yesterday I turned on the cold-smoked ElZhi two-chamber through the device showing both the current, and the voltage, and the consumption. energy, from 8-00 yesterday to 12-30 today, 1.8 kWh of energy accumulated, let it be 1.6 kWh from 8 to 8, multiply by 30 and get.
3- walls- hardly. You either "tokalo", or warmed up somewhere, and the SE would not be silent.

good day. according to the neponyatka scheme. what is it from the net wire to the automatics. 40A is written over it? and what is it on the RSh 10A diagram. THANKS FOR THE ANSWER.

Automatic machines 40 A for electric stoves, 25 A sockets, 16 lighting. The outermost wire on the left and right group and the right one in the middle is like-ground to the plate.
The 10 ampere socket is a service one, it was in the switchgear, three-pin, it's just that everything is drawn clumsily. Take it on faith.

it is drawn that two machines for 16 and one for 25 are indicated in the brackets above. and 40 amperes above the zero output. interestingly drawn

They drew as they could. There is an original metal plate with the same PCB, painted exactly like that. Well, the artist was not an electrician, what should you do?

Good day! In the floor boards of the railway. there are no protective panels on the apartment machines. Tell me what material they can be made from (it will be problematic from metal).

Durable and non-flammable - textolite, getinax.

Please tell us, what is the point of fixing two apartments on a zero bus for one bolt, and the third for a separate one? To save space? This moment is reflected even in the diagram.

If you fix it separately, there will be no problems. Are there not enough absurdities in this white world? Here at least the wires are not charred along with the screw.

I bow to all the specialists. My problem is that the electrician who was called in at the request from Mosenergosbyt to replace the midpoint. 1985 SO-50, put NEVU. But the data from it very badly "got" into the viewing window of the electrical panel (staircase square on 4 quarters 5-floor. (Khrushch-ka "). abandoned the installed, wrote in the act, in the apartment, he fastened the old one and did not seal it.
How to be? You need to go to the elkomp., I know, but which counter is suitable, they hardly know. They put what they have. They wanted to spit, as always, if only the money 4550 = "compacted". Will the computer make a claim to me about lack of a seal ??
Be so kind as to answer quickly, because you have to go to them, and they can easily "circle" the woman.
Thank you.

Svetlana, of course you were stupid by refusing to install the new Neva launcher. Firstly, no one will seal the old PU for you, since all the terms of its operation have expired (16 years + 16 more, if there was a verification). Secondly: it’s not your problem that the readings are not visible, the shield is usually opened and the readings are written off either by the residents themselves or by specialists authorized to do so (I don’t know about you, it’s different everywhere). You have only one way out - notify the company that seals the PU (meters) as soon as possible. But only to the one with whom you have concluded an agreement, her phone is on the receipt for payment of electricity, or in your management company (apparently this is "Mosenergosbyt"). And inform that you intend to replace the old PU with a new one, but since you removed the seal (although, in principle, your PU is considered unsuitable, and you were most likely removed for electricity according to the average or according to the standard) and tearfully ask them to install a new one. They will install the PU for you and seal them themselves. If this is not done, you will be charged a huge fine for negligence, believe me - this is really not a joke. Explain the situation, because you still have an act in your hands that it was not you who broke the seal. In general, the master had to initially outline the whole situation for you. But I haven’t seen anything like this before, to abandon the installation due to the fact that the numbers are not visible, this is simply unprecedented stupidity.

Why can't re-conductors from the apartment be connected to the shield body together with zero ones?

Good day. I was going to replace the old soviet plugs with circuit breakers. I have a five-story brick house (Khrushchevka), 68 years old, with four apartments per floor. On the staircase electrical panel, the plugs are divided into two rows of eight plugs each. There are four plugs for each apartment, two upper and two lower.
I have two upper plugs - rooms and sockets of these rooms, two lower plugs - an entrance hall, a bathroom, and a kitchen with an outlet. Any of the two traffic jams of any row turns off everything and the rooms and sockets of the same rooms. Here's how to determine which machine is 16A and which is 25A, then to be replaced with switches with the appropriate ratings. I am writing at length to fully outline the situation.

Good day!
Unfortunately I joined the community late.
In the floor panels, AB-25 submachine guns or the like were installed, and
They were fastened with two screws to the rear panel and there could not be DIN rails. In Russia, the TN35 rail was introduced by the national standard GOST R IEC 60715-2003.

Alexander. post from 03/31/2017 at 23:48
A question for you. And where is the metering device (counter) between these "traffic jams", or ...?

My leftmost two upper and two lower, as well as a packet switch at the bottom of the far left, everything is in the photo. At the bottom there are four meters in a separate compartment, and there is also a compartment for low-current currents, and there is no access to both compartments, locked.

Alexander, first of all, you need to look at the cross-sections of outgoing cables or wires, depending on what you have laid from the shield to the apartment. And already knowing the cross-sections, select the correct value of the machine. , for example, using the same caliper.

my 5 kopecks.
sobstno question if anyone knows anything about this, a five-story building with 3 apartments per floor, my possessions begin on the other side of the shield and I want to make a 3x6 bvg input, I marked the intended hole for the wire with a cross (so as not to cut the wall and not to enter the wire through the door box, as all the neighbors did), can I drill there, will I get on the track? As I suppose, the depth of the shield is 12cm, and the thickness of the wall is 15-17 and, in principle, there should be no wires, there is no wiring detector.
Thank you.

Vasya, we did this in one of the panel houses. After all, the place of laying the main wires and their entrance to the interfloor canals is clearly visible, and behind the shield itself nothing has been laid or walled up in the walls. At least it shouldn't, because the wires in the switchboard are laid in an open way directly in the switchboard.

What device can be used to determine whether the shield case is grounded or grounded?

Dear author, you can have a question. We have a two-storey, three-entrance, three apartments on the floor.
Apparently the time has come to replace floor panels, but I would not like to see this huge hulk of standard iron panels on the floor. Is it allowed to use ordinary shields, plastic for example ABB,?

Alexander! Did you read it carefully?
... The old single-phase induction meter SO-I466, which he wanted to replace with a newer SOE-55, was on his landing in the floor board.
In this article, I will dwell in more detail not on replacing the meter, but on the floor panel itself and its diagram ... (c)

Key words - "he wanted" !!! and the last sentence, huh?

The quality is suitable for all meters, but not all electricians have the correct screwdriver.

And most importantly, the brains.

I wanted to place a fiber-optic-to-Ethernet-interface converter in the low-current section of the floor panel. But for this you need a 220 volt power supply (12 volts can be used). How to correctly transfer the force from the power section of the floor board, from your meter to the low-current one? And in general, can this be done according to the rules?

Vladislav is probably not allowed by the rules. I also once thought, thought, thought ... and then I installed a 2-pole 2A circuit breaker in a plastic box in the low-current section of the floor panel in the vestibule to protect and safely replace the diode light bulb in the vestibule.

I have some telephone boxes in this section with a bunch of wires going to other floors. Telephone operators periodically visit and dig in these boxes, but they don't complain about my machine.

Why not and how to be all these IT specialists? And so be it, they calmly pull from the riser without asking anyone, and then the zeros and ones do not converge on the group and apartment SEs. In our house, during the transition to the condominiums, they found a couple of illegal IT-cable ones, they were allegedly allowed by the ZhEK.

Surfactants, I don't know for sure, maybe formally and not. We have channels for telephone and radio lines in panel houses, but they are often clogged with garbage. Telephone operators also violate, do not want to clean the channels and climb with their wires into the 380V compartment to go from floor to floor.
So if they ever speak to me for my machine gun, I will point them to their phone lines next to the riser.
And people sometimes put sockets in the low-current compartment to power all kinds of IT junk.

Yes, such retreats are darkness. It is possible and impossible to hang telephones and metal lines of radio and telephone networks on supports, nevertheless, they hang and fight with them, it all depends on the degree of filling the glass - whether the interested parties agree or not. This was not asked with a scoop, and everything hung. But if you do not allow to hang something else on the power transmission line supports, each operator will start planting their own supports ??? And they reconcile themselves in the RC, knowing perfectly the conditions of the game - you give me a waw, I will give you a waw.

And why were the 25A machine guns installed in this dashboard?

Alexander, for more powerful consumers, for example, the same electric stoves, only of lower power than it was supposed to (5.6-8.0 kW) with the corresponding machine 40 (A), which is indicated in the diagram under the asterisk.

So it was in high-rise buildings with electric / stoves - 40 A for the stove, 16 and 10 for sockets and light. Sometimes 16 and 16, sho snazazhitsy got it.

Hello! Please, help! On the 5th floor, we have 3 apartments per floor and on the site there are old meters with a spinning disk. In theory, there are aluminum wires everywhere. I want to put machines for 25 amperes markings, so that each room is independent, and machines for 16 amperes. RCD 40 amperes. Do I need to first clarify something with the management company or is it all within the framework of the guest and I can be calm? The husband says you can, but your grandfather cannot, you just need 1 machine 16 amperes, otherwise everything will be with the neighbors and will burn out on the site.

Why do you need 25 amps in sockets, and as many as 16 amperes on lighting ??? Will the welder and the spotlights be installed? For sockets 16, for light and 10 with a head is enough, UZO-25A
And what will burn out among the neighbors is only the opinion of the grandfather, no more.

When I came home, the light was not on, and a private trader was working in the shield on the stairs, called by neighbors during the renovation of the apartment. She asked why the light was not on, he said that he accidentally touched a rotten wire, and it fell off. Before that, there were no problems with the shield. A minute later, the light turned on. But the worry remained. What to do and how to check if everything is in order there on my side of the counter.

Natalia, unfortunately, this happens in old shields, which for years (or maybe decades) did not know normal maintenance - until no one touched the old wires, everything seemed to work, but if it was accidentally touched, something could fall off.
For example, chaotically located wires prevented this private trader from performing his work, and he decided to move them a little to the side, and one wire came off.
Whether he had the right to poke around in this shield is another topic. Check the presence of seals on your meter. If you accidentally hit the wire, it fell off, then they screwed it into place, then it's not scary, you can call the ZhEK electrician to check everything. Worse, if this private trader accidentally broke off not only a rotten wire, but also some rotten seal on your meter. In this case, you need to quickly go to the appropriate office and write a statement so that you are not accused of breaking the seal.

Find a QUALIFIED AND SANE ELECTRICIAN. Alas, remotely, except for flooding, it is unlikely that anything will help.

Lounger: Thank you so much for your answer. I just don’t understand how an iron wire could rot, aren’t they eternal. And I have a new counter. Everything else was changed for everyone in the house in 2000. Thanks again.

Natalia, as an option, there could be a weakened contact in the nut from the mainline or some other place of connection. When working in the switchboard, the electrician could accidentally help it to break away with a slight movement of the hands. The second option, he simply could mistakenly turn off your apartment, and in order not to look stupid in your eyes, he came up with a story with a rotten wire. I don’t think that if a major overhaul was done in 2000, there could be rotten wires. In any case, the lines and branches from them were changed. Although rotten wires could be after the meter, going, for example, to apartments, because the inputs to the apartments have probably not been changed ?! In general, it is not important, the main thing is that he restored your nutrition! All you have to do is, as Lounger recommended to you, just check for a seal on the meter.

The photo is not so hot, but the work is decent, some corners are worth something. Clearly, accessible, understandable. I would give it for pizarok.

And the electrician will leave after chuchi for kichu, there are no papers. Either work on a paper contract, or agree in advance and an advance. They work in the hope that only students will pay later, because they did not burn themselves.

Hello. We decided to change the machines for an apartment. The electrician turned off the old machines, which are in a separate place ... And the new machines now stand right where the meters are ... under the same door.
We have some. I look at all the machines are as expected, but in ours it is different. Tell me is this normal?

Elena, there is nothing wrong with that, he just placed all the machines together with the counter on one DIN rail.

Each protective device has a certain period of operation, the circuit breaker is also no exception. If this device breaks down, it must be replaced immediately. How to make a replacement correctly, as well as what causes of a malfunction, it is important to know not only an electrician, but also every homeowner so that he can correct the problem in an emergency. In this article, we will take a closer look at how to replace the machine in the dashboard and who should pay for this work in different cases.

Reasons for replacing machines

There are two main reasons:

  1. Frequent tripping of thermal protection.
  2. Constant work at the limit of possibilities.

It happens that even after the first actuation of the thermal protection system, the machine stops working. However, outwardly, this breakdown is impossible to notice. It is important to know that an electromagnetic and thermal release are not the same thing. Most often, breakdowns occur due to burning, and subsequently, and complete combustion of the contact clamps, as well as the cases of modular devices themselves. This happens mainly through unreliable and poor-quality contact. If the wiring is made with aluminum wire, then at the connection points, the core will be weakened over time. Aluminum is a softer metal and contact connections with an aluminum wire weaken over time, aluminum "floats". In order to avoid negative consequences, it is necessary to tighten the automatic terminals every 2-3 years.

Another reason is a factory defect, but this is extremely rare. To avoid marriage, you should not save money, and choose machines of well-known brands. We talked about it in a separate publication. You should be careful, because during installation, this marriage does not make itself felt in any way, however, under load, it will certainly manifest itself. Regardless of the reason why the device stopped working, you should immediately replace the machine, otherwise malfunctions may lead to.

Also, the need to replace protective devices arises if there are old plugs, and not new circuit breakers. We also talked about that in detail!

Replacement technology

Removing the old circuit breaker

These devices are not repaired or refurbished. The reason for this is a rather complex scheme, and at the same time, the purchase of new machines will be inexpensive. Basically, if this device breaks down, it is simply replaced with a new one with similar characteristics, that is, with the same rating, class, breaking capacity.

Before dismantling the machine, it is necessary to completely de-energize the line that supplies the device to be replaced from the network. Sometimes the replacement is carried out under voltage, however, in such cases, the replacement should only be carried out by a specialist. If work is being carried out without turning off the electricity, then you should be very careful and careful, especially if the case is in very poor condition, as in the photo below.

Usually the clamping plates are welded together, which makes it impossible to loosen the clamping screw. To carry out dismantling in such a difficult situation, it is necessary to have certain skills and experience. To simplify the task, you should initially leave a supply of wires in the shield.

If the wire connected to the machine is melted, the machine is burnt, then when installing a new machine, the burned, melted section of the wire must be completely removed and only a clean, newly stripped core must be connected to the new machine - this is the only way to be sure of reliability. That is, in any case, there must be a margin. If there was no stock and it was necessary to connect a burnt wire, especially an aluminum one as in the photo, then there is a high probability that the contact of the machine will burn out again, since the core that was overheated no longer has the same load capacity and may be more fragile than the whole wire ...

Most of the circuit breakers in the electrical panel are responsible only for some kind of separate line that powers, for example, sockets or the lighting of a residential building. Therefore, it is very simple to de-energize such an automatic device - you need to turn off the input bag, which is usually located on the staircase at the entrance.

However, it may be necessary to replace the circuit breaker, which is located in front of the meter, it is also called an introductory circuit breaker. The input device, if it is in a Khrushchev or a multi-storey panel building, is also located on the stairs in the electrical panel. In private houses, such a device can be 380V, it is also called a three-pole automatic device. The replacement of such a circuit breaker is carried out by a specialist, since the opening machines in the dashboard are sealed, and for breaking the seal there is a considerable fine.

After disconnecting the mains power, you need to check with the indicator and make sure that the power is completely disconnected. Next, select the necessary screwdriver and loosen the clamping screw. After disconnecting, the wires should be moved apart.

In new panels, the circuit breakers are attached to. If you do dismantling in such a shield, it is much easier. There is a hole at the bottom of the device where a screwdriver is inserted and pulled down. After removing the lower latch, tighten the bottom of the machine.

However, many homes still have old-style circuit breakers that are not rail mounted, but fixed with a long screw. It is very difficult to remove a device in which these screws are rusted or stuck.

Installing a new protection device

The first thing to do to replace the machine in the dashboard is to insert a new circuit breaker in place of the old one. The process is as follows: we put the latch of the upper part of the device on the rail and push the lower part until it stops and clicks. The next step is to work with wires. If necessary, they need to be cleaned, then inserted into the clamping holes and tightened the screw. You always need to pay attention to the condition of the wires to be connected and if there are traces of melting, burning of the core, strong deformation of the core, then this section must be removed and the wire must be re-stripped for connection.

The performance of the circuit breakers is checked by special equipment by loading them - checking the time-current characteristics. Without special equipment, it is simply impossible to determine that the thermal or electromagnetic release does not work or does not work in accordance with the declared characteristics. And it turns out that a malfunction of the machine can only be detected when it does not work, when necessary - that is, it will be possible to learn about its malfunction only by the consequences of an overload or short circuit (the machine itself, the wiring or the socket will be damaged). That is, you can buy a new machine with a marriage, put it on, it can stand for 10 years, and the person will not suspect about its malfunction until there is an emergency in the wiring - overload or short circuit.

Also, you should be aware that a machine from any manufacturer can be defective at the factory. At enterprises, when several dozen automatic machines are ordered for a new switchboard, they are always checked (loaded) before installation, since very often products are defective, even the best brands.

In everyday life, checks are not carried out, therefore, a backup protective device installed at the input must always be installed, which will de-energize the damaged section of the wiring in the event of a failure of one of the circuit breakers. And it is better for reliability to have an additional introductory machine in the home dashboard, since the machine, which stands with a meter at the entrance or on a support, is located further away and, accordingly, it is less sensitive to an increase in current. Also, if the machine at the input in front of the meter is installed outside the room, then its time-current characteristic changes when the temperature changes. For example, the lower the ambient temperature, the greater the current and the response time of the thermal release, that is, if one of the machines in the home panel fails, the wiring will be damaged before this machine is triggered.

Important! When replacing the machine with a more powerful one, you need to be sure that this change will not negatively affect the wiring diagram. Nevertheless, if such a replacement is necessary, then you should consult a specialist.

The video clearly shows how to replace the old circuit breakers in the electrical panel with new ones:

At whose expense the work is done

If the device malfunctions, the owners may have questions: who should change the machines in the dashboard, for free or for a fee. So, if we are talking about the input device, which is located in front of the meter, then it is a common property of the house, therefore the company must purchase and replace it for the money that the owners pay every month.

However, it is also important to know at whose expense the rest of the protective equipment is being replaced. Everything behind the meter is the property of the owner of the given dwelling, respectively, you must buy and replace yourself. Of course, you can replace the circuit breaker with your own hands, but it is better if a specialist does this.

That's all I wanted to tell you about how to replace a machine gun in the dashboard with your own hands. We hope our step-by-step instructions were useful for you and helped you understand the whole essence of replacement!

Hello, dear readers and guests of the "Notes of an Electrician" website.

In this article, I want to analyze a number of reasons that brought the driveway into disrepair.

If you have the same shield, then after reading the article, I recommend that you immediately check it for such errors and eliminate them before it is too late.

So, three weeks ago I changed the old single-phase induction meter SO-I449 (1986) for an electronic two-tariff SOE-55 (2014). A meter was installed in this driveway.

I described the scheme of such a shield in an article about. In my case, the shield is similar, only it is arranged not for 3 apartments, but for 4.

View from afar.

I will not talk about the replacement of the counter itself, read the following articles on this topic:

The fact is that this driveway is in disrepair. To be honest, while I was working, I myself was scared to be there.

And now in order.

From my own experience, I will say that the input machine will have a rated current of 32 (A) or 40 (A).

Choose a manufacturer of machines according to your financial capabilities: you can install expensive ones from ABB or Schneider Electric, or you can get by with inexpensive brands such as IEK, EKF or TDM.

2. Replacement of group machines

At present, group machines of the AE-1031 type (single-pole) are installed. They are, so to speak, already morally outdated, but that's not even the point. They are very unreliable; when they are loaded (), a large number of them do not pass the test, especially for thermal protection.

3. Get rid of aluminum wires

Currently, aluminum wires with a cross section of up to 16 sq. Mm are prohibited for use in the residential sector (PUE, clause 7.1.34), therefore, installation must be carried out only with copper wires ().

Lead-in wires from the main terminals to the group machines can be made with a PV-1 copper wire 4 sq. Mm or 6 sq. Mm. Others can be used.

(Besides ).

4. Replacing the apartment zero block

The old zero block must be replaced with a zero insulated bus for a DIN rail (SHNI), for example, this one.

5. Additionally (optional)

If the first four points are mandatory, then this point is more recommendatory. I suggested the hostess to at least conduct a visual inspection of the electrical wiring of the apartment (general condition, heating, etc.), starting from group machines in the floor panel and ending with sockets, switches, junction boxes. It would also not be bad, which are made of old aluminum wires.

6. Wiring diagram of the floor board

Here is a new connection diagram in a floor panel for one apartment - a minimum investment, everything is simple and reliable.

It will turn out something like this.

It is desirable to install an introductory and group RCDs () in the diagram presented above.

P.S. All of the above was explained to the owner of the apartment and her neighbors. Unfortunately, no one called me back. A few days ago, I accidentally walked past this shield and did not see any changes there ...

158 comments on the entry “The emergency condition of the driveway. We disassemble and eliminate the reasons "

    Until the thunder breaks out, the man does not cross himself. It's too bad that we are so negligent about our own safety. Relatives have a floor board in a similar state, I will show them this post as a guide to action.
    Thanks for the article, I think for many it is relevant.

    And what, then, is the cross-section of the main phase wires and the cross-section of the main PEN? And what section should they be?

    The proposed zero bar is rubbish. Nifig screws do not hold the wire, they turn out, break the thread when broaching.

    Better good old Soviet-type black ones, or modern wagons, on a DIN rail.

    Thank you for your efforts. We are waiting for new articles

    Zhora, here not only "thunder will not strike". Many people believe that the recommendations of builders, installers and other specialists are of the nature of "money for money." Thanks to the cunning "specialists". One lady to whom I was perverted in the selection of lamps and lamps for the winter garden (the aesthetics of lamps, the necessary light wave for photosynthesis and beautiful color rendering, moisture protection, expensive ceiling and other delights), shouted to me that I was trying to replace six chandeliers with one lamp. These were long battles; I finished the object with the fourteenth brigade of foremen. We're best friends now. But when you start talking to a person about safety and savings, you often hear that I'm trying to make money on them. I say that I am not trying, I am earning, but it should be profitable for them.

    Controversial article)) And about the shin, and about the single-pole at the input, and about the PV-1, which you will swell to bend in a confined space ...

    Monsieur Serge, you can also have a single-pole introductory machine, you can also have a two-pole one (read the PUE) - what's the problem? And I wrote about the shank as an example. You can use any bar, even a regular bolted copper bar. The flexibility in the shield is not required, so I chose the PV-1. You can choose stranded PV-3 (according to modern PGV), naturally, using ferrules. Below in the text of the article, I indicated a link to the table for the selection of cables and wires, where the recommended brands are indicated.

    Unfortunately, in the vast majority of houses built before 2000, you can easily find shields in a similar condition. When you have to do something in such a shield, you work like a sapper in a minefield. At the expense of the use of a shank - I usually, if possible, clamp more than one core under the screw, but bend the core in half, then the wire does not rotate under the screw and the contact is reliable.

    This is something else ... My friend went to change the meter for the customer and when he opened the door of the floor board, the board literally began to fall out of a special niche in the wall. An acquaintance began to hold him so that he would not fall out completely, while awaiting with horror that he would now "slam". Then he took out a mobile phone with one hand and began to call the management company (the electrician from the Criminal Code was familiar to him, so he had the phone number). And after 20 minutes. electricians arrived and secured the shield. And the acquaintance was holding him all this time. That's it.

    I have gas stoves in my house, the allocated power for the apartment is 3 kW. The introductory machine will be forced to put on 25 A, because the bag usually costs 25 A. Only no one cares about such shields. Here are the people with us (when replacing the wiring in the apartment) and put input machines and 40 A each at 16 sq. mm. aluminum phase wire. And they do not think that they can be phase neighbors in 3-4 apartments. Moreover, grounding is done in such shields. Does the overhaul of the house include the replacement of phase conductors with copper when entering the house and through the risers, as well as the installation of new circuit breakers and TN-C-S grounding systems in such shields? At the same time, the allocated capacity for apartments will remain the same (after all, it is unlikely that the lead-in cable will be extended to the entrance of a larger section)? Has anyone come across a major replacement of wiring in old houses and can give me his own answer to my questions? Thanks in advance.

    For a long time I wanted to write here ... I wanted to catch the author on something .. - it does not work out, everything is correct. From the point of view of a colleague - YOU Colleague! - I am sure YOU have a lot of like-minded people) I really want a separate topic - "Electricians' troubles", i.e. those situations that you face at work and do not find an explanation in theory

    Yes, Dmitry, you have a shield on the photo that is still "godly". Although you will not envy you. I had to dig in such shields (just to dig and not otherwise) that you compare your profession with the profession of a miner. One is not the right movement and ……………! Like a micro-surgeon with a scalpel, so are you with your instrument in that shield. Already breaks into sweat. In one, I remember, for a hundred years, probably no one looked. Cobwebs, dried flies and cockroaches, which do not care, are running around figs. you will catch it.
    And about the cross section of the wires. And absurdities are encountered in newly built houses. The lead-in into the dashboard is PV-1 for 6 sq. Mm., The jumpers between the machines with the same wire, and the outlet for the VVG electric stove is 3x10 sq. Mm.

    Alexander totally agree this shield is still a fairy tale

    Let's share the best creations of housing and communal services fitters)))))))))

    And how did you not get shocked there?
    We also had shields in a deplorable state, since in December 2010 all the electrics were completely changed there.
    House type II-68-01, year of construction ~ 1975th, 16 floors, 1 entrance.

    I also think that the flap in the photo is very much even nothing. In our entire city, almost all shields are much, much worse, sometimes you just don't want to climb (electricians from housing and communal services know). You go to change the meter like a war - just right to read a prayer. However, what to do? They do not allocate money, because they allegedly do not exist. Even insidious bagging machines do not want to replace them with cheap vending machines. I here suggested that at least the zeros from the bags should be discarded so as not to explode. The tenants, as a rule, are not going to change the machines after the counters either - they hang like that for forty years, they don't even always turn off, what kind of protection is there. On this occasion, I say to the tenants: well, you don’t forget to change the toilet, why not think about safety - who agrees and who sends.
    In general, it is necessary to sort out the shields and change the risers, since the load wires cannot withstand. In the ASU, beetles hang on half of the fuses, so now they constantly knock out the machines that the power supply company hung next to the general house meters. And one more misfortune: the heating season is over, the hot water was turned off - they began to buy water heaters in stores. We are holding on for now, but I feel it will start soon.

    "And let's share the best creations of housing and communal services fitters))))))))) you don't bite, and you can't figure it out (((((((

    To comment from 05/01/2014 at 22:15
    Oleg, we have capitalized a house, it seems about 45 years old, they extended completely new copper cables, both along the risers and from the ASU through the basement to all the entrances, replaced the bags with introductory two-pole machines (IEC) for 32A, replaced the internal wiring. I don't remember the exact cross-section of the standing cable, but that everything is in mind - it's a fact. Branching on the risers is done through piercing clamps - beauty! But, bypassing the requirements of the PUE, they left the four-wire system (TN-C). Was interested: why? They say that a lot of money has already been spent. True, such a major electrical repair became possible only thanks to the senior in the house - all the city authorities are afraid of her. Now, if you tell her about TN-C-S and that they were obliged to do it, then, I am sure, she will achieve that the fifth wire was thrown to her and grounding was driven into the lawn. It is a pity, but there are few such necessary people in the country.

    Hello. In principle, everything is correct and clear. One question. How will the controllers from the power supply organization react to the appearance of a switching device (machine) with open contacts to the counter? Maybe the common lead-in AB needs to be put into the box and sealed?

    Thank you for the article.
    However, the question is: why multiply avtics in the dashboard? Why not put RCBO instead of AV + RCD ?. If the screw clamps from this brass-powder stuff are bad, then throw off, who can, a link to the good ones.

    "So that the selectivity of its operation in relation to the input protection devices installed in the VRU-0.4 (kV) is observed."

    And if you put yourself an introductory machine in the dashboard by 6 mm in copper (replaced from the main to AB), say by 40A or 8 mm and 50A? In general, if these currents are not coordinated with the energy supplying organization, what is the threat to the tenant?

    Threatens with a fine for any inspection or "God forbid" an emergency situation, and the blame can be completely laid on you - I have come across such a case in practice, but I will not talk about it now - a long story, just know that the nominal value of the introductory machine sets you power supply organization, depending on the allocated power to the house, the cross-section of the main wires and the ratings of the protection devices in the ASU of the house.

    Dmitriy! And if you take pictures of such "beautiful" shields, where should you send them?

    Email me.

    I work in the emergency gang, I think I'll get a used soap box to capture the masterpieces. By the way, where can I look at the mail? Where can I send masterpieces?

    Hello! With a copper wire VVG 6 squares to the main (STAND in the shield) make piercing clamps of the self-supporting insulated wire. I would like to hear YOUR opinion. THX.

    I came home from work somehow late. I entered the entrance, on the first floor the lighting did not work as usual, and besides, the elevator was somewhere on the upper floors with open doors, so I had to stand in silence for a while. And in this silence I heard a “hiss”, I didn't have to look for a long time, the “hiss” came from the driveway, looked inside, and it’s true, there was a “small welding machine” working there. He knocked on the first door that came across, the hostess came out, I briefly told her about what I had seen, outlined the consequences and went to my floor. But this sparkling haunted me, and I decided to report. First thought at 12 o'clock in the morning - Where to call? What is the phone number? And I couldn't find anything better how to call 911, I told everything as it is, how it could be, after the service operator began to offer me to call there or there. After that, I lost the desire to do anything further.
    The fire did not happen, but the problem was not eliminated either. After some time, apparently according to the program, the electricians came and changed the metering devices and, at the same time, the wiring. So far, everything is new.
    This is how everything is done in Russia, if you want to help - take a pliers screwdriver and go fix it yourself, or wait for a fire.

    Do not take the pliers and fix it yourself (otherwise you can get money), but find out the emergency service number and call there. As a rule, on the 1st floor in the entrances, such information should be, well, or in the telephone directory.

    Hello, yesterday I assembled a flap for the bathhouse, I almost did everything, as you said, but the store did not have a single-core cable of the desired color, it was blue and green, I bought a 3-core 6 mm cable. It was very difficult to separate it, of course, because it was a guest, the blue cable turned out to be more free, I made a phase jumper for them on the machines.
    For the bath I took input machines for 25 A, RCDs for 40 A 30 mA, 10 A for light, 2 16 for sockets and one stock. Firm of automatic machines and UZO Lengrand. I can send a photo to the soap. Did I do everything right, except for the color of course.

    Sergey, in order to answer you on the choice of protection devices, you need to know the cross-sections of the outgoing lines for lighting and sockets. You can send a photo of the dashboard to me by mail.

    Yuri: Please share the best creations of electricians from housing and communal services, and then, as a master of electricians in housing and communal services, I will give you the opportunity to calculate how much they work.
    Oleg: With capital, everything changes from the LIE itself (panel room) and up to the machines for the apartment. We usually pull PV3 * 25, these are risers from the ASU to the upper floor without a break, if the entrance is far from the ASU, then PV3 * 35 in 9-storey buildings. In 5-storey buildings there is PV3 * 16, as a rule, well, or 3 * 25 if it is far from VRUshka. The only thing that residents are forced to buy is meters.

    Sergey, during major overhauls, we replaced the ASP-0.4 (kV) including. In short, the project for a 5-storey Khrushchev was as follows. For each entrance from the ASU, we extended the main line (risers) with aluminum APV (5x16), then in each apartment we installed an input automatic device C32, after it an electric meter (you correctly noted that the new meters were purchased by the consumers themselves) and 2 groups of C16. I plan to write everything about this with more detailed explanations and nuances, but so far there is no free time.

    We are only laying copper at the capital. Although lum 16 square is also possible.

    Sergey, or anyone in the subject, tell me, but who determines the need to replace the cable from the TP to the ASU at home. loads have increased in recent years. During overhaul, everything in the risers will be replaced, and will the armored cables withstand the ones that are on the ground. Is this taken into account in government agencies that make up projects for capital repairs of houses?

    Then the TP also needs to be modernized.

    No, it doesn't count. A certain power is always allocated to the house and it is limited by the input protection devices. More often these are fuses, less often circuit breakers. In general, this is the zone of balance delineation of power grids in our country, at least.

    Admin: I have a little piece of advice for you, a colleague. We put two zero busbars on one insulator. We connect them together with a piece of wire, so a large contact area is obtained and the wire is clamped under two screws. More reliable, especially considering that the wiring is from lum.

    And tell me why, instead of the "packet", the VA is installed, and not the VN?

    At VNka, the price will be more than that of VA. And I don’t know where how, but in our city VN this is a custom-made position. Most likely for these reasons. And the meter also needs to be protected.

    I cannot agree with the HV load-break switch, a switching device without a protection function, in other words, the same switch in a modular design, from the point of view of protection, AB is more reliable.

    Dmitry, you wanted to write an article about RCDs in the TN-C system ...
    I may not have found it. Prohibited by the rules, of course ... but

    Where do you connect the ground wire from the washing machine in the dashboard, or anywhere like in your diagram above for sockets and lighting?

    Nikolay, put a difavtomat instead of the RCD, and do not connect the grounding in the shield to anywhere yet, although if in principle you look at how your bath is grounded, it can be easier to throw PE to it

    Nikolay, if your residential building is not transferred to the TN-C-S system, then you do not have a separate main grounding conductor, it is combined with a working zero and is called PEN. What to do in such a situation and where to connect the PE conductor from the washing machine - read in.

    ... that's just the topic)))
    a washing machine was also connected to a neighbor on the site ...
    I went then looked - the phase through the machine, zero to the apartment zero rail, and the third to the housing of the floor shield under the nut.
    Crime?

    Nikolay, is the trunk 4-wire or 5-wire?

    Nikolay. There is no crime here. There is simply a danger that in the event of a break in the neutral wire, if it is PEN, a non-weak potential will come to the instrument cases. For this reason, I usually do not connect the ground wire (if there are no 5 wiring in the house), but leave it insulated until reconstruction, and protect the line diff. protection. Believe the experience of the ZhEKovsky electrician, a zero break is a very big reality.

    If Zhekovsky electrician Sergey has the nickname junta, then greetings from Andrey Ingener

    Andrey Ingener greetings from the junta (Sergey Panagushin)

    Dmitry, I don’t know which highway ..
    the house is 40 years old. The system is most likely TN-C.
    Apparently 3 phases and neutral - 4-wire.
    I started up my washing machine through an RCD with a 10 mA leak.
    the third wire is hanging.

    Sergei, are you talking about a break in the common neutral in the floor panel?
    I'm not a pro)) but I went to school))
    can it really burn out? Well this is how to overload ...
    and what then are the entrance automatic machines for?
    or group machines in apartments ...

    Nikolay, there is no crime here. They just zeros the body of the car. According to the current rules, it is forbidden to neutralize the enclosures of electrical equipment - now you need to ground it. If you have a TN-C riser, then do not connect the PE-conductor until the reconstruction. Read how to correctly transfer a residential building from the TN-C system to the TN-C-S (explained everything in detail).

    Zero break is easy! There are many reasons for this: untimely or complete lack of technical maintenance (most often weakening of contact connections), electricians' errors (breakage of the neutral main wire when performing any repair or installation work), initially incorrect installation (it is necessary that the main zero, if possible, go to the last floor is not discontinuous, and the branches on the floors were carried out using special blocks, as in the example in the article), uneven load in phases, etc.

    Therefore, a zero break is not a myth at all, but a completely harsh reality - for protection I recommend single-phase relays UZM-51M or.

    Thank you. And another question))
    I want to put a 2-pole automatic machine instead of a bag in the dashboard.
    What is the difference between 2P and 1P + N?

    ... and which is better to put in your opinion?

    Sometimes manufacturers indicate marking and some do not

    Nikolay, it is better to install a 2P two-pole circuit breaker with protection in both poles. For a two-pole 1P + N circuit breaker, protection is performed only on the phase. In principle, you can install any, because the current in both conductors will be the same, but 2P is more reliable in terms of the fact that suddenly, for some reason, the protection in one pole will not work.

    We changed the counters in a village in the north of Moscow. At the same time, the input was changed from the pillar to the wall from the old aluminum to the vulture.
    There are four apartment houses. Each apartment has its own box, in which machines and meters are installed.
    Now for a treat - all these boxes were made of wood!
    It is not known how the entire village has not yet been burned down.
    Considering that sparks rained down in several apartments when trying to open the cabinet door ...

    Hello Dmitry, I did not know where to write, I am writing on a topic similar to the topic.
    Several questions torment me, I will try to describe the problem in detail.

    There is a cable, copper 4 / 2.5 mm, three phases and zero.
    You need to connect two single-phase heater guns, each 3300 watts.

    Question N1: -

    Is it possible to connect one gun to phase A and to zero, the second gun to phase B and zero with a wire cross-section of 2.5mm2?
    Phase C will have several luminaires with a total power of ~ 200 watts;

    Question N2: -

    What approximately the current will be in the neutral wire when the guns are turned on on two phases (will it burn out?, Because as I understand it, the phase imbalance is not small)

    Question N3: -

    I beg you to explain in your own words how you can approximately calculate the current in the neutral wire of a three-phase network, for example, when you turn on only one 3300 watt gun, or two guns in different phases of 3300 watts each.

    I understand a lot, but I can't catch up with the phase imbalance and the current in the neutral wire.

    Andrey, as I understand it, you shouldn't take a steam bath on this problem. The current in the neutral wire will not be more current in any one of the phases, because everything is balanced there. Only under certain conditions can it go beyond the permissible-powerful UPS, different rc-lc load But this rarely happens in everyday life.
    The neutral wire is needed to balance the voltages in phases, to create 220 volts and as a protective conductor.
    In kraynyak, you can put a 4-pole automatic machine and divide n by pe before it.

    Edward, thanks for the answer.
    I understood about zero.
    And there is such an observation about balancing the voltage between the phases.
    I live in a village. The house was recorded in three phases, but the voltage on the lines with the arrival of winter skewed: 196v / 210v / 230v.
    Although I spread the entire load in the house evenly across all three phases.
    I don’t know how to understand it.
    Suppose one of the neighbors has loaded one line, for example, electric heaters. But why then the neutral wire did not balance the voltage remains unclear ...

    Edward, good evening.

    1. You can.
    2. The current in the neutral wire in a three-phase four-wire system is equal to the vector sum of the currents of all phases. Once again, I focus on the expression "vector sum". For example, you have a symmetrical load (currents in all phases are the same). In this case, the current in the neutral wire will be zero or close to zero. If the load on the phases is different, then a current appears in the neutral wire, but its value does not exceed the value of the current in the maximum loaded phase.
    3. It is easier to measure than to calculate, because for an accurate calculation, data are needed not only for the power of consumers, but also for all values ​​of currents, line and phase voltages, shift angles between the current and voltage of each phase, etc. I recommend reading the textbook on TOE, there these moments are described in great detail with examples and calculations.

    Dmitry, thank you for your answer and understanding, what I wrote off topic.
    All the best to you.

    Hello! And why and why is the nominal current ouzo more than the machine protecting it, and not a turn?

    It's a pity. But alas, there are thousands of such shields. And the workers of the Zhek, or rather their owners, basically have one intent and it is in a crispy equivalent. At work, such shields on mobile residential wagons often come to me. I repack them in a better way. A neat and aesthetically pleasing arrangement is like styling in an operating room.

    Hello dear Admin! First of all, I want to thank you for such an informative site.
    I got a little problem, in my 4 sq. Meter board:
    1. Not one apartment is worth an introductory machine.
    2. Directly on my square. After the counter there are three submachine guns, two workers
    One, as I understand it, is a reserve one, from them two wires go into the apartment from the entrance shield
    Phase zero, phase zero. And it turns out that all the apartment wiring is twisted to these two wires in one box! Although I am a non-master of electrical engineering, for some reason it scares me!
    3. I am thinking of removing the automatic machines from the entrance panel and installing an apartment panel for 4 modules (automatic machines) in the apartment for each room with its own automatic machine.
    Please tell me how best to do this ???
    Is it possible to leave the old machines in the entrance shield and after them put 4 machines in the square ????
    Or you have to remove the seal from the meter through energy sales and start from the load terminals
    New cable (phase zero) for the apartment panel ??

    Thanks for the comment, only I don't need to change the meter, the previous owners of it
    They replaced it with a new one, but apparently the installation was carried out, as I understand it, by a not very grateful electrical fitter. The only problem now is that the meter is sealed and in order for me to lay a new introductory cable in the HF, the seal must be broken from it.
    Tell me which authority you need to contact with this issue?
    I don't need to do this on my own, as I understand it.

    To remove the seal, you need to contact the power supply company. On payment for email energy is their phones. The introductory machine is obliged to supply you with the Criminal Code for free, this is their area of ​​responsibility. But it is better when they come to buy a machine on their own and "negotiate" with an electrician to supply you with your machine with a nominal value of 40A. The standard one is unlikely to exceed 25A and it is better to put a two-pole machine, I would even say a two-pole one. And then there are cases you know

    The smoker's shield is shorter.

    But offhand it looks like nothing at first glance.

    Good article! Listen to the article, change wires and machines in such a shield - this is your safety. A case from my life: I did not look into my own dashboard (although I knew the deplorable state of affairs - the same as at the beginning of the article, one to one). Once I change the outlet - I short-circuited it by accident (sparks, heat wave and scorched protective SPECIAL gloves) - and even if the machine is henna - that it is, that it is not there))))
    After that, he called - changed. By the way, they helped to save money (they installed an RCD + an automatic machine instead of the difavtomat that I asked for at the beginning) - it turned out cheaper for ABB.
    Thanks to the author.

    Hello. Tell me please. Here in the pictures you connected to the phase wires in the dashboard with "breadcrumbs", and there are still options and so to connect under voltage, wearing rubber gloves, I thought to use the OR-6 clamp, but one jamb on the 9th floor and the phase wires dangle in the air, if screwed on can bend and the doors of the shield, theoretically, hook. Here is another example of what kind of thread are insulated clamps but light, so as not to "crack" for that with them under tension hemorno screwed

    Such a state in the inter-storey buildings - a proprietary dowry from the USSR - was blinded as and from what came to the tenants, and this is a joy. In my house, the situation is worse, tk. Lysva's stationary plates melted themselves, and the wires / contacts melted. And my branch, perhaps, was the only one where there was no carbonization of the insulation, because from the very beginning everything was compressed, and with steals, and with casings. And the sockets, nevertheless, certainly suffered - not only was the lumen, and even old and uncontested at the beginning of the outlet. The outlet with sockets was simple - a normal plug with a normal cable was plugged into it once, everything else went only through extension cords for a different number of places, but already of the Euro-type.

    Michael:
    08/10/2015 at 02:28
    Why is OR-6 not suitable for you? They can be safely connected under voltage without any gloves.

    Good evening. C pushed with similar shields, asked to do a bypass and prophylaxis. I was wildly surprised by the state of many shields. It was Akhtung)) decided with the chairman of the HOA to fix the emergency and gradually redo everything. In your upgraded dashboard, I see terminals isolated on a DIN rail (above in the photo), I can't understand how they are connected there, because four wires should sit on the same bus, but under different bolts, as it was originally, or am I thinking something wrong, tell me?

    Sergei, before reworking the circuit, zero for each apartment went through a packet switch to the meter. Naturally, the "bag" was dismantled during the modernization process, and a two-pole automatic machine was installed in its place. Thus, the zero for each apartment is taken by a separate wire from the main zero and goes first to the two-pole machine, and from it to the meter. From the counter, zero goes to the zero bus N. There are three of them in the dashboard, i.e. each apartment has its own zero bus (in no case should they be connected to each other). Even in the upper right corner, you can see the terminals - they were installed due to the short wires going to the apartments, the length of the apartment wires was simply not enough and it was necessary to install additional power terminals, both for phase and zero. If the wires have a sufficient supply, then it is advisable to connect them directly to group machines and zero buses.

    You were misled by the fact that the presented photograph and the diagram in the article are somewhat different. The diagram shows two group vending machines per apartment, but in the photo there is only one. There may be two or three of them. The essence of the scheme does not change from this.

    Recently I saw sparking with a glow effect in the ASU on the first floor of my house (the house itself is 16-storey). The glow is located behind one of the current transformers (they are most likely for meters), they happen when the elevators start moving, but nothing special.)) It started the other day, I even made a video on this topic.
    Isn't it already there that zero is slowly burning out (although it is unlikely)?

    MotoBiker1995, where exactly does it spark? At the junction of the current transformer and the case? Can you send me a video - interesting to watch?

    Tell me, what can be replaced or is it still possible to find an old insulated zero bus? It's just that in the dashboard there is a need to replace only and, but there is no place at all. One bus goes to two apartments, the second to two more. One wire comes to the bus from the meter and three from the apartment (respectively, two wires under one clamp), according to the PUE it is so spelled out. Here's how to solve this problem, power terminals seem to be not an option? Thanks in advance. The photo of the shields was sent to you by e-mail ( [email protected])

    Well, right there is my dashboard in the photo. For 20 years of life in my apartment I replaced the entire internal strapping from aluminum to copper, a packet switch, automatic machines for 2 circles. The machines burned out the bottom contacts due to poor contact in the jumpers made of wire. The problem was solved. installation of a w-shaped jumper made of brass. Well, on the eve of NG, the local UK brought a notice to replace the meter. I changed it with my own hands. After reading this article, I thought about replacing the machines with modern ones.

    Why exactly yours, sho for proprietary assaults !!! ??? Such shields in the EksSSSR are milen and a wheelbarrow.

    Once they called me to check why the machines in such a shield knock out by themselves, I arrived, I was horrified, I decided to measure the voltage surges, then the probes on the tester evaporated! Dangerous business these shields, all on snot, for often no protection and directly, everything was redone. Be careful!

    From WHAT did the probes evaporate, from measuring the voltage with a tester?

    From the fact that the phase goes to the machines and zero to the frame of which they are screwed.

    And what, from this, an arc arose and the probes evaporated? Do not frighten me at least, otherwise the people will be afraid to measure the voltage.

    As I say, be careful!

    ... I banged my head against the wall for a long time ... In general, I avoided answering ... (c)

    In the floor panels, the probes and the screwdrivers often evaporate. In old electrical panels, extreme caution is needed, nothing can be relied on, not on machines, not on insulation, even on the shield with a self-tapping screw, not zero is connected, but a phase! And immediately inspect the main wires, recently a screw protruded from the "nut" of such a wire at a distance of 3 mm from the floor zero, one awkward movement and I scared 2 apartments with fireworks.

    Tell us in detail how the probe evaporates when measuring voltage! The people have the right to know the truth. Everything!

    “MotoBiker1995, where exactly does it spark? At the junction of the current transformer and the case? Can you send me a video - interesting to watch? "
    I haven't looked here for a long time, but I will answer: the connection with the transformer sparked, everything was repaired there. I will send the video later as I find it.
    Transformers are for meters.

    “Tell us in detail how the probe evaporates when measuring voltage! The people have the right to know the truth. Everything! "
    Yes, you are an atheist dad ...))) Walk around with an electrician, you may see the moment when the test leads and screwdrivers evaporate in the old shields.
    If you didn’t see, hear, or feel something, it doesn’t mean that it’s supposedly “no” ...

    This is not an answer. Why would I go with an electrician? You wrote it yourself, and explain it yourself, if you don't know, don't torture the keyboard. Extreme cases - a drunk electrician, a blind electrician, an illiterate electrician, bad and twisted probe wires should not be disclosed, they write on another site.
    Once again, a normal voltmeter, any, in normal hands with a normal head from above does not spark, short, does not create sparks and does not swear at the same time.

    The most interesting thing in such a shield will begin when the contact of the terminal holding the phase weakens and starts to warm up. And on top of it lies another phase wire.

    It will be no less interesting in a similar situation with zeros on one pint, but with power supply of two apartments from different phases.

    What can happen in this case?

    I'm going to redo the wiring in the apartment of an old panel house from aluminum to copper. But the lead to my meter from the entrance will still be aluminum. How can I replace this wire too? How to formulate a request to the board of the housing cooperative, which is responsible for the wiring? Can I hire an electrician myself to replace this cable? Or can it be done only by an electrician with whom the housing cooperative?

    Julia, this wire is part of the riser and will be replaced during the overhaul of the electrical wiring in the house.

    Julia, nevertheless, you can do it yourself, or rather with the help of a hired electrician. In ZhSK, explain that you want to replace the supply wires from the main line to the meter, and that at a certain date and time you will need to disconnect the voltage from this riser.

    Good day! Yes, colleagues opening the floor board of the old house, at least to some extent, are already preparing mentally. But when you open the floor board of a five-year house, this is of course nonsense. It seems that the diagram is glued on, but when you turn off the machines, you realize that it is here to divert your eyes. And most importantly, the cross-section of the wires is in no way designed for the rated load. Even in the project, the cross-section of the wire is no longer enough. To whom you do not turn shrug.

    I ran into trouble over the weekend. The light went out in the apartment.
    I called the electrician from the UK and it turned out that the phase wire at the input to the meter
    was poorly tightened. Of course, he pulled everything up, but hinted that everything needs to be changed.

    House of 90-year-old, all on aluminum, 4 wires. There is no protective ground.
    Only in kitchens, a 3-core wire is connected to one outlet.
    And then, this socket, or rather a place for it with wires, was found under a layer of mastic during repairs. It was not connected on the shield either.
    The wires were simply laid in the backboard. As a result, they connected a washing machine there.

    But that's not the point. After the advice of an electrician, I started looking for information on how to do it correctly. And I ended up here on this great site with this great article.

    Everything seems clear, but I would like to clarify some points.
    - in the PEN article, the wire is connected through the machine and the meter to a zero insulated bus under a DIN rail. I now have a tap from the interfloor PEN wire firmly screwed to the shield body.
    How to be? After all, this shield serves two apartments.

    Julia Vladimir Admin (Dmitry? As far as I have learned) tomorrow I will try to take a photo and throw in what the electricians of the housing cooperative or the management company should do. Pavel, judging by the picture you have there, it's not that the horse was not lying around ... And he wiped himself with insulating tape))) I have not seen such metal corrosion for a long time. And the shield must be grounded (during the construction of houses in the USSR, a 6 mm steel wire is usually welded) and ground again. And the land stretched from the TP. So it's up to you to decide how the electrical wiring will go through your apartment. Those. zero and earth will always be separate or united. Only in the shield it is necessary to output the wires of the corresponding color, so that there are no doubts, well, they must be connected in accordance. And in this "noodles" it is difficult to understand who is hu. In email the stove (in the outlet) can easily change places zero and the protective for (zero, ground) in apartments in floor boards is all connected.

    depressing another. what communication system you can’t take from us - everywhere is a jumble of wires, clumsy twists, etc. cracked boxes with open lids, etc. ... the conclusion is a very low service culture all over the place. as a result, when a specialist like the author of the article proposes to put things in order, he is perceived as a “money extortionist”. sadly

    yes it is not necessary to especially formulate. most likely, the supply to the meter comes from a traffic jam or a vending machine to your apartment. there is a small section of the cable. as a last resort, you can refer, as indicated in the article, that it is forbidden to supply an aluminum conductor with less than 16 squares to living quarters. the only thing is that such work must be carried out by an authorized electrician, since he must seal your meter after replacing the wire and, accordingly, must have the right to do so

    I want to add to the previous comment that if you are replacing the wiring from the shield to the meter, it is worth installing an introductory machine in front of the meters

    According to PUE in PEN com. The device cannot be installed, but do you suggest?

    Hello to the author and residents of this wonderful blog!
    I ask you to help me. It's time to replace the meter in the floor board. I am attaching a photo. The bag burned out and everything was connected directly, even before I moved into this house, and that was 13 years ago. The zero tires fell apart. The neighbors put a c63 submachine gun in the one-room apartment, two enter the two-room apartment !!! lead-in cable. C40 is on a three-ruble note on a phase wire ... It is dreary all the time.
    In the UK, a power engineer, a young boy, cannot even tell me the allocated power ... I forgot to say, we have an electric stove and three AB 32 + 16 + 16 Stove, light, sockets.
    The wiring in the apartment has not changed yet, luminous from birth, help with the action plan. As I understand it, you need to make two taps, phase-zero, and ??? Automatic or diff? Which counter is better to buy? Further, with the automatic machines, should they be kept the same, or should they be reduced due to the old age of the luminescence? I will not do it myself, but I want to know the steps for the repair. There are no intelligent specialists in the housing office, I tried to communicate when replacing lamps in the corridor ...
    Something like that…

    Here's another schematic diagram

    The whole floor is on one phase, is that okay?

    It's not normal, really. And even more abnormal is the heap of wires in the shield, a nightmarish creepiness.

    Surfactants with you and do not argue ...

    Something with the time in the blog, the number is the same, but the hours and minutes, no ...

    Roman, who's arguing? So, light chatter on topics close to electrics, and nothing more. Yeees???

    Surfactant, not really, I'm waiting for Dmitry to give good advice on eliminating this indecency)))

    You are waiting for Dmitry to give you all the points of the PUE and so on. regulations? The only advice is to turn off the risers, cut off all the get and make new wires, competently and beautifully.

    In general, the surfactant is right, I would have done so if the neighbors on the site supported such an idea. And then often the opinion converges in the phrase "it works, why go there and change something." The simplest option, instead of, as they have been called lately, "exploding" bags, suggests itself, either an introductory machine or a load breaker. I am for the first option.

    If the UK cannot tell you the allocated power for the apartment, then the choice of the denomination is yours. A single-pole 50 (A) circuit breaker will be enough. Cross-section from the main to the machine and from the machine to the meter and outgoing machines, use a copper wire with a cross section of 16 sq. Mm. Then install three machines on the DIN rail. We will consider the installation of RCDs or difavtomats, as well as some kind of automation (voltage relay, digital voltmeter, etc.) later, because the main thing is to correctly choose the ratings of the machines for all lines, and for this you need to accurately determine the section of the outgoing lines to the apartment ...

    Zero. There are several options for the scheme, depending on the selected devices. We'll discuss it later. By counter, direct connection with rated current 0-60 (A) or 0-80 (A). The number of tariffs is optional, but two-tariff will probably be more profitable. Manufacturer - Mercury or Energomera, but this is not important.

    In principle, the fact that the entire floor "hangs" on one phase is not so scary, although the diagram shows power from different phases. Apparently, when the installation was done, the distribution of loads was taken not by apartment, but by floor. The main thing is that all three phase mains pass through your floor, which means that in case of congestion of any phase, you can always reconnect to a less loaded phase.

    Dmitry, thank you for not leaving me alone with my problem.
    On the distribution of phases and the choice of the meter, I understood everything, it is not fundamental.
    About a wire with a cross section of 16 squares, is this probably a typo? Probably talking about 6k?
    I did not understand about a single-pole machine at the input ... Why not a two-pole one?
    And what characteristic (A / B / C / D) should he have?
    Protection relay, should you install it before the meter?
    On the cross-section of outgoing lines to the apartment: light-2, sockets-2.5, plate-6 (all lumin).
    By the way, in the initial message I wrote that I have three machines 32-16-16, I was mistaken, 40-16-16 will be correct.
    There is also such a question, in view of the impossibility of carrying out repairs in the apartment at the moment, is it possible to be powered from the stove. If so, what is needed for this, to create a mini shield in the kitchen?
    And immediately the question about grounding, you always point out that it is impossible to ground to the shield, but if I don’t confuse (three wires come to the stove), the stove is grounded to the shield.

    I wanted to power a washing machine, a microwave oven and a kettle from the stove.

    If in turn, it is possible, if all at once, it will be a bit too much. As for the earth, a similar picture in my house / apartment - for the stove, the earth is taken from the shield, but this wire is non-disconnectable, in contrast to the zeros, which are disconnected by the pre-accounting VN.
    From the same dashboard and to the SM I took a conditional land, also non-disconnectable.

    There is no difference whether the "ground" is disconnected or not, the fact remains that you have a TN-C grounding system and, in fact, this is not grounding, but a neutralization, the disadvantages of which I talked about in the article about. Unless there is a separate PE bar on the floors! This can be easily seen by carefully examining the floor boards and the ASU at home.

    About the machine 50 (A) and the cross section of 16 sq. Mm is not a typo. For clarity, I attach a table (see below).

    Single-pole machine because the TN-C system, which means that it is not recommended to break the combined N and PE for safety reasons (prohibited by the Rules). Unless it is again confirmed that there is no separate PE bar going along the floors!

    According to the machines, C can be installed at the input, at the outgoing B, but again, ideally, it is necessary to know the short-circuit currents,. Because it is possible, in terms of selectivity, the option with characteristic C for all machines will pass.

    Install the voltage relay after the meter, otherwise you may not sign the act of commissioning the meter. Here .

    I am not considering the issue of power supply from the electric line yet, here you still need to deal with the above.

    Dmitry, hello surfactant. I will be happy to continue our conversation.
    On the cross-section, I attach a photo, I have a suspicion that the site cuts the quality of the photo, but in my opinion it is even so clear that the wire on the left is thinner. When measuring, I used not only my own wires, but also those of my neighbors. There is no mistake. One diameter 1.6, two for 1.8, and 2.8. There is no micrometer, but a vernier caliper with an error of 0.05, shows no problem on one of the water wires 1.6.

    Forgot to attach a photo.

    About the automatic machine and the section of 16 squares, I understand. About the relay after the counter, I understand.

    About the phase-zero loop, from 8 to 10 they ask. I can't cope with such expenses now, I'm a mortgagee.
    Can you get by with the empirical method for now?

    The bathroom was welded to some corner, sticking out of the wall. Maybe earth?

    Roman, your diagram is small and difficult to read, but on the Admin diagram at the beginning of the topic, you can clearly see that both phase and zero are torn at the same time by two-pole VN, for example, 06/21 and 03/23, they are simply not normally designated as a single product.
    Your PC may well sit on the fittings of the house, or on the bus that runs along the entire riser, and there is probably earth there. And this is already enough for security, so they thought then. As far as the land has been preserved, it is necessary to check, but it is unlikely that it will be otherwise.
    As for the section, there was aluminum and 2.0, and 2.5 mm in the early hours, 2.0 pulled for lighting, 2.5 sockets, I met such things.

    Roman, what kind of office is this that asks for 8-10 thousand for measuring the phase-zero loop ?! At this rate, I would have been a millionaire for a long time. There, in fact, you need to make 3-4 measurements at the farthest points, a maximum of about 1000 rubles will turn out.

    By machines. You have machines with 40-16-16 denominations installed in your shield. Taking into account the cross-sections of aluminum wires (6-2.5-2 sq.mm) and the conditional tripping currents of the machines, it is necessary to set the ratings 25-16-10 (A).

    So, today we have at the input machine 50 (A) and outgoing machines 25, 16 and 10 (A). Well, since it is impossible to measure the PFO, then I would set the characteristic C at the input, and B. I will explain at the outgoing ones. Not knowing the short-circuit currents it is difficult to make a choice according to the characteristics, but given the old lines, aluminum wires and the existing state of electrical equipment, it is better to insure yourself and install outgoing machines with characteristic B, because short-circuit currents in your case may be small.

    Next, you need to resolve the issue with RCDs or difavtomats. I would do as follows. On the sockets, your RCD 25 (A), 30 (mA), and on the stove and lighting your RCD 63 (A), 30 (mA). Alternatively, instead of automatic machines, you can install difavtomats on each line, this is at your discretion. Then their settings for rated current will be 25, 16 and 10 (A), and leakage currents 30 (mA).

    On grounding, or rather, grounding. Nothing can be changed here until there is a reconstruction in the house, so we leave everything as it is. I talked about this in more detail in my article about.

    Automation. Decide for yourself, but at least there should be a voltage relay in the board!

    Questions?!

    Dmitry, there are a lot of questions)))
    In the office, these are the laboratories that I googled on the network, they either take in volumes, or at a minimum for an exit. If you tell me who in Moscow for a thousand, I will be glad.
    Do you need a general fire protection RCD in the shield?
    I will repeat about the kitchen, I wanted to build a mini-shield for connecting the stove. There is a washing machine, a microwave oven with a kettle and a TV on one block of outlets.
    I would like to unload all this evenly.

    By automatics. You wrote that the minimum is the presence of a voltage relay ...
    What else should be?

    Roman, I won't tell you about Moscow laboratories. A fire-fighting RCD is not needed, an RCD on the outgoing lines will be enough. There is a lot of things that can be installed on automation. Voltage relay, voltmeter, ammeter, phase indicator lights and even an arcing protection device (new in our market). It all depends on your desire and capabilities. But as I already said, you definitely cannot do without a voltage relay - this is a vital device.

    Additional shield. You have 6 aluminum on the stove. Install the shield in the place where this cable comes. Power the stove as before - directly, plus from this line you connect, for example, two automatic machines 16 (A). And already from these machines, you supply the necessary sockets with a new copper cable. I can tell you in more detail, but you need to know more precisely what you want to do.

    Dmitry, our automatic machine from 40A has become 25Amp. Although the 6ka holds 32 A. Is this due to the lack of measurements, and the condition of the wires?
    On the voltage relay, four years after your review of the RV32A, do you recommend it as well? And will it suit me in terms of characteristics?

    In the kitchen.
    Now a washing machine is connected directly from the stove, without any ouzo and diffs.
    TV, microwave, kettle and small coffee machine hang on the light line. There is a wiring at the top, I just lowered the block of outlets down. And now the light from 16A has become 10A, it won't pull ...

    This is sad.

    Dmitry, thanks for another sensible video on YouTube. Thumbs up)))
    Here's another question arose on the previous recommendations. For machines, characteristics (C) and (B), and what kind of RCD do I need, (A) or (AC)?

    Roman, I have the same floor panel. I strongly advise against connecting to a 6-square-meter cable of aluminum that goes to the stove, anything else (kettle, microwave, etc.). I did this, and as a result, the zero from this cable burned out in the floor board. Now we have to pull a new cable from the shield to the kitchen, put a new block in the shield for zeros.

    And, in general, Roman, do not bother too much if you are a mortgagee and apartment renovation is not expected soon. On the cable for the stove (6 square aluminum), put a 25 amp circuit breaker. He will protect him stably. You don't use all the comforts and the oven at the same time, do you? An automatic machine of 40 amperes for such a cable is too much (initially there was a Soviet black automatic machine for 16A). Put 10A in the light. To 16A sockets. Separately lay a normal 3x2.5 copper cable (VVGng-ls or NYM) from a 16 amp machine from the floor panel to the kitchen. Make a couple of outlets for your washer, microwave, and kettle. For peace of mind, put an introductory machine on an apartment in 32A. At the very least, it will protect 6 square wires of aluminum from the general switch to your meter, and from the meter to your machines. In total, you will have 5 submachine guns in the shield. Should fit.

    That's what I wanted to do.

    Can't you use a vulture puncture?

    A voltage relay is required.It's a fact

    5 years have passed, it is interesting that what has changed there or not?

) for all apartments located on the staircase.

However, modern trends have changed the approach to the distribution of electrical energy and they began to equip electrical panels directly in apartments. This was due to several main reasons, namely:

  • Lack of space in floor panels due to too much electrical equipment ( , machines, counters, and so on);
  • The need to preserve rather expensive electrical equipment from vandalism and theft;
  • Convenience - to turn off a group of consumers in an apartment, there is no need to go out into the staircase;

There are electrical panels for hidden and outdoor installation.

Distribution of the apartment electrical network into groups

To increase the safety and reliability of power supply, as well as more convenience during operation and repair, the electrical network of the apartment is divided into groups. The most popular distributions of the apartment electrical network into groups are as follows:

  • By types of consumers - very well suited for small apartments, where consumers are divided into the following groups: lighting, kitchen sockets, air conditioner, boiler, washing machine, sockets in rooms, and so on;
  • By premises - it is most advisable to use in large apartments with relatively high energy consumption in each room: kitchen, corridor, technical rooms, rooms, and so on;
  • Quite often, a combined version is also used, consisting of the methods described above;

The purpose of the apartment board is to individually cut off the supply voltage for groups of electrical receivers, metering of electricity, indication of the presence of phases, and so on.

Very often, to implement protection and shutdown schemes, they resort to the two most common options:

  • All sockets are connected through an RCD to one machine. Lighting circuits are connected to another machine without using an RCD, and the third is used to power powerful consumers, such as a washing machine, boiler, air conditioner and others.

The advantages of such a connection scheme:

  1. Simplicity;
  2. No need for additional junction boxes;
  3. Low cost;

Flaws:

  1. In the event of an accident, the entire group of consumers will be left without power supply;
  2. The process of detecting a fault on the line is more complicated;
  • The circuit breaker combines the functions of supplying lighting and sockets with power distribution in junction boxes. In this case, potentially dangerous circuits must be equipped with RCD residual current devices.

Advantages:

  1. Each area of ​​the power supply is under control, which contributes to good management and quick finding of faults on the line;
  2. Maximum protection;
  3. In the event of an accident, almost all devices will remain connected to the network;

Flaws:

  1. The dimensions of the shield are increasing;
  2. The price of the project increases significantly;

Electrical circuit board

Below is a schematic diagram of an apartment switchboard:

The panel diagram is made for single-phase input. The diagram is conventionally designated: L - phase of the supply voltage, N - neutral or neutral conductor, PE - protective ground.

More detailed diagram below:

An introductory circuit breaker is a circuit breaker designed to completely turn off the entire apartment in case of an emergency or to forcibly turn off the entire apartment by the user himself.

An electric meter is a device for metering the consumption of electricity in a given room. The measurements are carried out in kWh. They can be both mechanical and electronic. Electronic electricity meters can be programmed and transmit energy consumption data to other electronic devices.

Differential automatic device is a device that combines the functions of a circuit breaker and an RCD residual current device.

Busbars for connecting wires - they complete electrical panels with at least two. One for connecting ground wires, and the second for neutral wires.

In the specified dashboard, there are two branches for separate groups (QA4, QA5). Group 1 has three branches (QA4) and group 2 has two branches (QA5). This option can be suitable for certain functional groups of the bath and kitchen.

Examples of schemes for apartment panels

The electrical installation of the apartment switchboard is carried out on the basis of the electrical diagram. If the shield is purchased assembled, then the electrical schematic diagram must be attached.

An example of a simple apartment electrical panel using an RCD is shown below:

For clarity, the cross-sections and brands of cables are shown that can be used for individual cable lines.

Shown on the right is the standard configuration of a regular apartment. At the entrance to the apartment, they are installed in series with a differential circuit breaker or a conventional circuit breaker. There can be several consumer groups in the board.

In the example shown, a group of lighting and sockets protected by two BA63 circuit breakers with a rated current of 16 A, as well as an automatic device with a rating of 25 A to protect an electric stove.

Quite often, air conditioners or washing machines are distinguished into a separate group.

The electrical panel diagram for a multi-room apartment will look something like this (diagram on the left):

Differential circuit breaker is installed to protect kitchen outlets using a large number of different electrical appliances. Differential load switch protects other objects - bathroom lighting, room switches and other electrical equipment.

A more complex circuit for a switchboard for a multi-room apartment is shown below:

In this case, an RCD VD63 with a differential current of 300 mA is installed at the input. This is due to the fact that the leakage current can be quite high due to the large length of the line and when installing an RCD with a lower leakage current, false alarms are possible.

The first three circuit breakers are needed to protect the lighting circuits. Differential automatic device with a leakage current of 10 mA is used to protect the electrical equipment of the bathroom. This low trigger current is necessary due to the increased risk of electric shock in the bathroom. A group of UZO VD63 and three automatic devices protect the sockets. Three-phase automatic machine VA63 and UZO VD63 protect powerful consumers, such as an electric stove. The last line of one VD63 RCD and two VA63 circuit breakers are designed to protect the circuits of utility rooms and other rooms.

A floor switchboard or a floor switchboard is designed for the distribution and metering of electricity among the apartments on the floor. For this, various automatic devices for distribution, protection, electricity metering and other automation devices are installed in the floor switchboard. Also, distribution devices for low-current networks (telephony and computer network) are installed in the floor panel.

Floor board (SHE) refers to metering and distribution boards that combine power and low-current electrical wiring. Unlike control panels (SCC), which provide power to electrical installations and control of their technological processes, SCCs provide reception and distribution of electrical energy to consumers. By the way, control cabinets produced by Megaholod will allow you to solve any problems of automation of refrigeration, ventilation equipment and air conditioning.

A distinctive feature of ShchE is the presence of a low-current section and windows for external reading of electric meter readings.

Floor switchboard - general characteristics

  • The floor switchboard has two or three compartments. One for distribution or metering and distribution of electricity. The second compartment is designed for low-current networks (telephony, Internet, signaling). All compartments should have separate doors.
  • The floor switchboard with installed meters should have plexiglass windows, in which the meter readings should be clearly visible.
  • The floor board belongs to the switchboards of the 1st class and is made only of metal.
  • Usually, a floor board is installed in a niche, but a wall installation is also found.
  • The panel doors must open at an angle of at least 95⁰.
  • The panel doors must be locked with a key or have a special locking device.

How is the floor switchboard mounted

Of course, you do not have to install floor switchboards. It is enough to figure out how it works and where what terminals are provided in it. Consider the device of the old and new floor boards.

Old floor board

Consider, more or less, a standard old-style electrical panel (see photo), in normal condition.

The floor board in the photo is intended for four apartments. It is divided into four parts.

An introductory circuit breaker and a group of automatic devices are installed for each apartment to protect the group circuits of the apartment. The group of far right machine guns should belong to the far right apartment on the floor.

Instead of circuit breakers in the floor panel, combined releases (differential circuit breakers) can be installed. They must be class B or C and have a switching capacity of at least 3000 Amperes. Let me remind you that the switching capacity is the ability of the device to work after a short circuit of 3000 Amperes. That is, there was a short circuit in the circuit with a current of 3000 Amperes and the circuit breaker was knocked out. After that, you cock the lever of the machine and it works further.

I advise you to choose circuit breakers with a switching capacity of about 10,000 (ten thousand) amperes.

Recommended related articles
Fruit trees
Annunciation to the Most Holy Theotokos
Annunciation to the Most Holy Theotokos
During the strict period of Great Lent, believers were given one day of rest and joy, giving strength and helping to pass the test of fasting until ...
Trees
Henna tattoos henna drawings for men lion
Henna tattoos henna drawings for men lion
Henna designs for men are a great alternative to tattoos. These designs are harmless to the skin and allow you to decide if you want ...